Rain, rain, nothing but rain.
Yesterday, when I saw the weather forecast, I was pleased. A whole day to myself with nobody to disturb my peace. It’s been a busy couple of weeks, with gardening, a shopping trip, a family visit, a couple of luncheon engagements with friends, nothing arduous or stressful, but enough to make me look forward to solitude. It was the American poet Marianne Moore who said "the cure for loneliness is solitude” and I must admit that seeing too much of people often leaves me feeling lonely.
Today, I feel differently. This rain is too depressing and I’d love a bit of company. So, in the absence of ‘live’ companions, I am turning to you.
One of solitude’s gifts is room to think. Not that thinking leads to much in my case on a day like today, but when I sit doing nothing else thinking stray thoughts is a natural consequence. Normally I’d sit and read but, unlike my natural hedonistic attitude to life, I felt a bit guilty for doing nothing all day. So I sat and thought. Mainly about people and my perception of them as relating to me. And that is, of course, where things get complicated. I do tend to overanalyse.
I may have mentioned it before: do you enjoy a good argument or do you go with ‘anything for a quiet life’? When meeting groups of acquaintances and friends do you prefer like-minded people or are you happy to leave your comfort zone and listen to opinions you don’t share? Do you bite your tongue when someone expresses themselves in a forceful manner on subjects which you find yourself diametrically opposed to? Do you allow them to have and hold opinions in the spirit of free speech or do you fight your corner, always realising that that might lead to a fight? Or do you say ’there is no arguing with some people’ and leave it at that? Some of the ladies I meet read newspapers I wouldn’t keep for toilet paper and they do insist on repeating the viewpoint, angle and stance such papers espouse. Sometimes it’s just gossip, for instance the permanent negative bias towards Meghan Markle or ridicule of the environmentalist teenager Greta Thunberg, at other times it's the vicious anti immigrant, anti gay, racist mindset. Bearing in mind that these subjects do not come up every time you meet and that these ladies are actually friendly and helpful in many other respects do you continue to meet with them? Or is meeting with them just not worth the hassle?
Tell me what you think.
I live in a country where everybody has a perfect right (and is encouraged) to be wrong and proud of it. Lately, I begin to think there ought to be some curbs on the practice.
ReplyDeleteYou've mentioned Meghan Markle. Well, how dare they criticize her? She is what she is. It's he, Harry, that has to be criticized for not marrying a british girl, one who belongs to the nation that pays heavy taxes to keep him doing nothing. He's english royalty, not just anybody that can spit on his nation and marry whoever he fancies.
ReplyDeleteAs for Meghan, she's charismatic and manipulative, and I won't be surprised, if she overcomes any technicality and becomes Queen of England someday.
You know, now that you mention it, I wouldn't be surprised either...
DeleteI find it hard to understand why anybody wouldn't like Greta. She's a teenager with a mission and incredibly smart! And I would find it very hard to hang out with such people. Just my two cents.
ReplyDeleteI try, very hard, to listen and allow people space for their own opinions. And sometimes succeed. I do challenge people who are being cruel (particularly when their cruelty can get back to the victim).
ReplyDeleteAnd need my solitude. I am often lonelier in a crowd than on my own.
Very good article again, friend Friko, and very good questions as well. So while I was sitting there chomping on my Sauerkraut mit Butter und Kuemmel, I mulled over everything you said. And here is what I think: I am working with people every day and on my days off, I love to putter around the house or not, read what I want or not, eat when I want or not and sleep when I want or not. I can go for days and days without talking to anybody with one exception and that is talking to Theo Thunderbutt:) I feel that I am giving a lot … money to the government, compassion to my patients and all of those three and more to my family. So my ME time is my taking time for MYSELF and according to MY needs. … that's all she wrote:) PS: … and, yes, I do like a good argument/ debate but sadly most people are confusing that with fighting, which is not worth MY time. … and that's really all she wrote:) Much love, cat.
ReplyDeleteI could have written this post, but not as well.
ReplyDeleteThere are times to speak up and times to not speak. I spent some time with Ukip sympathisers if not supporters in the north of England and as they were my partner's family, I zipped up. While I have a right to an opinion, it is not my country and I don't live their lives to know why they are sympathetic. Nevertheless, they are the most wonderful and kind people who made us so welcome.
ReplyDeleteAs for thinking, I do about three minutes of that in the shower each morning and usually about what I am going to do that day. Any more thinking, especially about people, would tip me into insanity.
I am of the group that there is no arguing with some people. They are a certain age, I assume. If indeed you think you can persuade one or two, be prepared for a strategic approach that takes time. Be prepared to lose.
ReplyDeleteArguing politics and other touchy issues has become a combination of entertainment and blood sport. I have no time for it: hence, my absence from social media. I have friends whose opinions differ from mine in various directions, but for the most part we agree to disagree, and focus on what we enjoy about one another rather than on issues that divide us.
ReplyDeleteAs for solitude and thought, I said it best in my bio on my blog: "Living a quiet life, a hidden life — anchored to my dock like a barnacle to a piling — I varnish boats for a living. My dock provides both things Virginia Woolf recommended for a woman who writes: money, from the labor, and a room of my own — space and solitude for thought, remembrance, and creative reflection on the truths and mysteries of life."
There are issues connected to living such a solitary life that will become more pressing in the future, but loneliness isn't one of them. I've been trying to remember the last time I felt lonely, and I can't.
I am the same way about people. Sometimes I'd rather be reading than observing their foolishness. Family members disappoint with their political points of view, and so called friends consider debate/disagreement on a topic as arguing. Ah, I can meet up with people for only so long. But I do like to observe human behavior and always seem to attract strange strangers.
ReplyDeleteHaving listened courteously to people 'explaining' to me, 'calmly and accurately' why the U.K. should remain in the E.U., I am curious as to why, when I attempt to 'explain', 'calmly and accurstely' why there is an alternative point of view they begin to foam at the mouth - figuratively - and refuse to debate further. There are exceptions...but they are few.
ReplyDeleteBiting my tongue? No! I let anyone keep his own course of thinking and have his share of mistakes. I’m not the one to argue or fight. Normally I have my own opinion, but never impose it on others. That’s what students like about me: I’m a good listener, not a dictator. Instead, putting forward a counterargument or formulating a question to tackle the problem from another angle work better.
ReplyDeleteHope we helped to forget your depression. Come to read my latest Shakespeare impressions whom we both love!
one answer to all your questions...it depends. it depends on who, the subject at hand, how feisty I feel at the time. but generally, I try not to let bigotry or hatefulness or ignorance or just plain condescension pass without pointing it out. I don't like arguments or fights and am happy to let the other person have the last word once I've said my piece. I do enjoy spirited discussions as long as all parties stick to the facts. once it devolves into insults and name calling, I'm done. but then, I live a solitary life and don't often find myself in the company of strangers or acquaintances (or family members on the husband's side) who's opinions differ greatly from mine.
ReplyDeleteYou wrote a great post Friko, just what I needed. I am in a book club that I adore but there is a person that always draws attention to herself and hijacks the entire get together with her needs and wants. I would like to tell her that but my American friends think she needs kindness and understanding. I think she needs somebody to tell her to think of other people not just herself. She really pissed me off at the last meeting . Everybody wants to be polite and understanding but I am getting tired of it. My French girlfriend who is also in the book club agrees with me.
ReplyDeleteDon't we all have at least one person like that in our lives. I strongly believe that they are there for reason. If anything, their purpose is to cultivate compassion. Love, cat.
DeleteDiscussion, questioning, and debate seems to have died over here in the US. People have taken sides and I avoid fighting. Especially when it is pointless. So my current position seems to be can't change them and can't change me. Even my sister and I cannot discuss politics. She's never going to change me into a Trump supporter and I am not going to change her. (Obviously, we are not close and never have been--LOL!)
ReplyDeleteGerlinde, there is one like that in my poetry group. Sometimes I feel like kicking her but the English members let her ramble on, although they all agree with me that she is a nuisance. It must be something do with national traits.
ReplyDeleteCat's explanation that her purpose is to cultivate compassion goes wholly against the rain. Somebody should tell her about good manners.
wholly against the grain. the rain has softened my brain I think.
Delete:) Love, cat.
DeleteMy mother-in-law is an ardent Daily Mail reader and shares the views expressed in that paper, which vastly differ from what I think about many topics. I still love her and we can have good and meaningful conversations, but I'd never try to convince her of my view point - she is 85 and I do not expect her to change views she's been holding all her life only because I argue with her.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to views different from my own, I prefer reading and then quietly thinking about them. I do voice my own opinion when I am with my boss and colleagues or friends and family, but I do not like heated (and often pointless) arguments.
Hi Friko – you’ve put your/our thoughts well … as a participant in various groups there are very opinionated people – sometimes I fall into that slot. Greta Thunberg being one … yet a scientist said he admires her courage … so the conversation became neutral and without conflict on that subject.
ReplyDeletePeople do read those papers don’t they, see the headline and then spout – without consideration. There’s one guy, who was very UKIP in a political group – I left that group, but he’s turned up again at another and always turns the discussion to the era he wants to talk about. I find them so inconsiderate …
If I see the argument will always be one-sided as there’s no chance of discussion … I escape as soon as possible.
There’s things I’ve missed out on in life … I’d love to be able to discuss more easily – but I work around them and enjoy when I can … however I totally agree with your comment “someone should tell her/them about good manners” …
Good thoughts for us all – I hope the rain has eased off – good for the garden though … cheers Hilary
Wow, what an interesting topic Friko. I was in a controversial theatrical production recently and the reaction of some of my friends was so condemning and judgmental. I did bite my tongue as I find I can be quite acidic and opinionated. Let it go, is my internal mantra at times. Some refuse to look at all sides of an argument and I have no time for those who are racist or misogynist (the Megan thing is really, truly bringing out the worst of racism, disguised, of course, as something else). When I see people using their power to bring some good in the world I applaud them. Period. It would be so easy to toss the bonbons and complain about the lack of good servants these days.
ReplyDeleteI would so enjoy sitting down with you and having a great discussion, and possibly diverging, polite viewpoints.
XO
WWW
Lots of acquaintances here with lots of diverse views. Some immigrant friends, like me, with right wing, anti-immigrant opinions! Go figure!
ReplyDeleteOk, I find this discussion extremely important as well as interesting and also entertaining, friend Friko … so much so that I feel compelled to talk about my own experience with "Nervensaegen":)Here goes: I have a coworker that has a "Deckel fuer jeden Pott" … no matter what the topic of discussion. Sadly her "Deckels" are often quite ill fitting. 3 examples: 1.) Somebody talks about their love for Cuba … "Nervensaege says: Cuba is dirty! 2.) Somebody admires the Dalai Lama and his teachings … "Nervensaege" says: The Dalai Lama lives like a king, while his people live like paupers! 3.) Our newest coworker is a highly educated nurse from Ghana … "Nervensaege" tells him to go back to Africa … by the way … "Nervensaege" herself is an immigrant from El Salvador … yeppers … I have seen coworkers leave the work place in tears because of her. When I hear her speaking ill, I always say one word and walk away, and that word is, you guessed it: Compassion … and that always and miraculously leaves her speechless … works every time. I agree with Wisewebwoman and I also would love to sit with you and mull things over. Always, cat
ReplyDeleteNext time you have a sad rainy day do let's have a cup of tea together.
ReplyDeleteThere was a time when people could argue cordially and I enjoyed that, but we are all part of tribes now and today, the only safe thing to talk about is the weather.
ReplyDeleteAlas, I have to admit that there are those--even childhood friends--that I avoid because of their support for our current administration. In the past, I could listen to the conservative point of view respectfully and even say that I understood their point of view. now however, that Other Side seems to be closer and closer to complete Evil and I can't nod quietly and say, well, that's your opinion. Hence, the avoidance.
ReplyDeleteOnce you accept that most people are idiots who don't know what they're talking about, just loving them and being with them the way one is with puppies and kittens becomes easy. Too honest?
ReplyDeleteSo many questions, Friko! Yes, I won't discuss with a person who expresses an opposite opinion, because everyone can have their own opinion. And I prefer to remain silent than to prove my point of view, because all emotions affect my heart, which I, after the illness, cherish.
ReplyDeleteI do not divide friends into useful or useless and can communicate in a friendly manner with them over the phone.
What a great post - really enjoyed it and the comments - we used to say - Yes you are entitled to your opinions as long as you can defend/explain them - but nowadays there is very little discussion/debate/explanation - just argument/conflict/rancour - however I still like to put my point of view and attempt to discuss it however if the person is just too conflict oriented - I tend to smile, let it drop and hope that perhaps some of the points I made stay with the other person -as theirs do with me - whether I like it or not!
ReplyDeleteYour words deserve more than one reading
ReplyDeleteDear Friko, since I've moved from Minnesota, where I lived for 38 years, my circle of friends has narrowed drastically. I was retired and so held no job here where I could meet friends. Nor am I a church-goer and so met no new friends there. Nor, since I cannot drive, do I volunteer--so no friends there. So basically I see few people--family, a friend or two, and neighbors. The majority of them generally thing the way I do. However, not everyone does and rather than argue--because some need to change my mind rather than just exchange viewpoints--I simply say, "I think we are going to need to agree to disagree on this." then I take another sip of tea of eat another bite of the entree or simply change the subject! Peace.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting set of questions. I used to feel more like it was more worth hearing opinions of people I disagree with. And I still think there are instances when that is true. But, at least in my country, we've lost our damned minds. And I have zero patience for people who support a president and administration who condone racism, homophobia, sexism and sexual assault of women, and so on. None. I walk away from those discussions.
ReplyDeleteI am opinionated, but also now old enough to have learnt to express my opinions pleasantly without (as in earlier years!) causing upset. There are some attitudes such as racism and sexism that I'm always prepared to challenge but I just express my own thoughts in a firm but mild way without being confrontational.
ReplyDelete